Micah and Rob. Read it top to bottom and you have the whole episode: what each part is about, the facts, the words to say, the clip to play, and the question to throw to Rob. About 45 minutes plus clips.
What this episode is about
Abdul El-Sayed is a doctor from Michigan who had never been elected to anything. This August he took on a sitting congresswoman, got outspent several times over, and won. Now he is the Democratic nominee in one of the most important Senate races in the country, and on November 3rd he could become the first Muslim US senator in history.
Republicans say he and his family have ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist movement Hamas grew out of. Democrats say that's Islamophobia. On NBC's Meet the Press he was asked flat out if his family has any ties to the Brotherhood. He said no.
Today we go through the record and find out who's telling the truth. Where the attacks on him are wrong, we say so. Where his own words don't hold up, we play them.
The one rule for the whole episode: say what the record shows, then give your opinion and call it your opinion.
How we record this
Before you start: upload every file in the clips folder to Riverside's Media Board, in number order. Each one is already cut to the right seconds.
Cameras on you and Rob the whole time. Nothing is on screen except the two of you, until a clip plays.
To play a clip: say the lead-in, click it on the Media Board. It plays for both of you and records on its own track. When it ends, react.
Never share this page on screen. It's your notes. Keep it on a second screen or an iPad. Rob has it open too.
On this page: green box = what you say. Blue box = the clip and its file name. Grey list underneath = the facts behind it, if Rob or anyone asks.
Start with segment 1, the cold open. Don't read "What this episode is about" out loud. Segment 2 does that job.
1Cold open1 min
What this part is about: Hook the listener in the first 30 seconds with his own answer, before you explain anything.
Start 22:30, stop 23:00, right after he says "No." Play it before either of you says a word.
File: 01-meet-the-press-no.mp4
Say it like thisThat's Abdul El-Sayed. He's running for US Senate in Michigan, and that was him on Meet the Press on October 11th. The question was simple: does your family have any ties to the Muslim Brotherhood? And his answer was no. I'm Micah, this is Rob, and this is Love People Enough. Today we're going through the record, and you can decide for yourself if that answer holds up.
2Who is Abdul El-Sayed, and why should anyone care?4 min
What this part is about: Most people listening have never heard of him. Before any accusation, tell them who he is, what he's running for, and why one Senate race in Michigan matters to someone in Virginia.
Say it like thisSo who is this guy? Abdul El-Sayed is a doctor from Michigan. His parents came here from Egypt. He's smart: Rhodes Scholar, Columbia, ran Detroit's health department at 30. But he had never been elected to anything. He ran for governor once and lost. This August he goes up against a sitting congresswoman, gets outspent several times over, and wins anyway. He was the underdog, and now he's the Democratic nominee for Senate in Michigan. On November 3rd it's him against Mike Rogers, a Republican, Army vet, former FBI agent. The polls are basically tied. And here's why you should care even if you've never been to Michigan. That one seat could decide which party runs the US Senate. If he wins, he'd also be the first Muslim US senator in history. So this isn't a Michigan story. It's everybody's story.
Start 0:00, stop 0:15. Shows the crowd and how big a win it was.
File: 02-al-jazeera-primary-win.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
41 years old. Born and raised in Michigan. His parents immigrated from Egypt. He's a practicing Muslim.
Doctor and epidemiologist (a disease and public health expert). Trained at the University of Michigan, Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, and Columbia.
At 30 he ran Detroit's health department, later Wayne County's. Both were appointed jobs. He has never won an election.
Ran for governor of Michigan in 2018 and lost the Democratic primary to Gretchen Whitmer.
Bernie Sanders progressive. Medicare for All. Endorsed by Bernie and AOC.
The seat: Michigan Democrat Gary Peters is retiring, so the Senate seat is open.
The primary: three Democrats ran. State senator Mallory McMorrow dropped out in July. On August 4th he beat Congresswoman Haley Stevens by about a point, with 48.5%. The groups backing Stevens outspent his side several times over, including more than $30 million from AIPAC, the biggest pro-Israel lobby.
November 3rd he faces Republican Mike Rogers: Army veteran, former FBI agent, 14 years in Congress, former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Rogers lost Michigan's 2024 Senate race by about 19,000 votes.
Mid-October polls have it basically tied. Cook Political Report calls it a toss-up. It's one of a handful of races that decide which party controls the US Senate.
Hand it to RobBefore I brought this to you, had you ever heard of him? What was your first reaction?
3Why I looked into this4 min
What this part is about: Your own story. This is what makes the listener trust you: you didn't go looking for dirt, you went looking to be proven wrong.
Your points, in order
Army. Iraq. You've had bullets go past your face and lost someone close to you over there.
Politically you've moved: progressive Democrat around 2019, leaning Republican by 2022, and now neither side works for you.
When you think of Muslims, a lot of what comes up is war. An old childhood friend pushed back on one of your Facebook posts: he spent years overseas, and the Muslims he met were the kindest, most generous people he'd ever known. He was respectful about it and it stuck with you. The truth is somewhere in between.
You got the Uyghur story wrong on an earlier episode, and it was a wake-up call to do the work before forming opinions.
Then you kept seeing El-Sayed headlines. Republicans say terror ties. Democrats say Islamophobia. You spent four hours trying to find out who was right, and you were hoping it was overblown.
Say it like thisI want to be upfront about where I'm coming from. I'm an Army vet. I was in Iraq. I've had bullets go past my face, and I've lost someone close to me. So when I hear the word Muslim, a lot of what comes up for me is war. I know that. An old friend of mine from when I was a kid called me out on Facebook. He spent years overseas, and he said the Muslims he met were the kindest, most generous people he's ever known. And he was respectful about it. That stuck with me. So when I kept seeing these headlines, Republicans saying this guy has terror ties and Democrats saying it's all Islamophobia, I wanted to know who was telling the truth. I sat down for four hours, honestly hoping it was overblown. Some of it is. And some of it, I could not believe.
Hand it to RobYou know me. Do you think I went into this fair? Call me out if you don't.
4What is the Muslim Brotherhood?8 min
What this part is about: The whole episode turns on this group, and most people can't say what it is. Explain it plainly before you say his family's name.
Say it like thisOkay, so what is the Muslim Brotherhood? It started in Egypt in 1928. It's a political movement, and the goal is a government run by Islamic law. Some branches run in elections like a normal party. Others have backed violence. To put it in perspective: Hamas, the group that carried out October 7th, started as the Brotherhood's branch in Gaza. That's in Hamas's own founding charter. In January our government named three Brotherhood branches as terrorist groups: Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. Not the whole movement. Personally, I don't understand why not. That's my opinion. So no, not everyone tied to the Brotherhood is a terrorist. But when a man running for the US Senate is asked if his family has ties to it, that's a fair question. And he deserves a straight answer.
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Founded in Egypt in 1928. A political and religious movement. The goal is a society and government run by Islamic law.
Spread across the Middle East with branches in many countries. Some run in elections like a normal political party. Others have backed violence.
Hamas was founded in 1987 as the Brotherhood's Palestinian branch. Hamas's own 1988 charter says so. Hamas ran Gaza and carried out the October 7th, 2023 attack on Israel: about 1,200 people killed and about 250 taken hostage.
The Brotherhood briefly ran Egypt. Mohamed Morsi, its candidate, won the presidency in 2012. The military removed him in 2013. He died in custody in 2019. Egypt has called the Brotherhood a terrorist group ever since.
January 2026: the US named the Brotherhood's branches in Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon as terrorist groups, the Egyptian one for supporting Hamas. The Brotherhood as a whole is still not designated.
"Islamic law." Is that Sharia?
What it looks like when a government enforces it
Iran: September 2022, Mahsa Amini, 22, was arrested by the morality police for not wearing her headscarf properly. She died in their custody three days later. Huge protests followed.
Saudi Arabia: blogger Raif Badawi got 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes for "insulting Islam" on his website. January 2015, he got the first 50 in public, outside a mosque, after Friday prayers.
Pakistan:Asia Bibi, a Christian farm worker, was sentenced to death in 2010 for blasphemy after an argument over a cup of water. The governor of Punjab, Salman Taseer, defended her. In 2011 his own bodyguard shot him dead. She spent 8 years on death row before Pakistan's Supreme Court acquitted her in 2018.
Afghanistan: since the Taliban came back in 2021, girls can't go to school past sixth grade. December 2022, women were banned from universities. August 2024, a law says a woman's voice can't be heard singing or reading aloud in public.
Sudan: 2014, Meriam Ibrahim, a pregnant woman, was sentenced to death for "leaving Islam." Her father was Muslim, so the court counted her as Muslim even though she was raised Christian, and it threw out her marriage to a Christian man and added 100 lashes for adultery. Released after a worldwide outcry. Sudan scrapped the death penalty for leaving Islam in 2020, after its dictator fell.
Brunei: 2019, a new law made gay sex and adultery punishable by stoning to death. After a global boycott the Sultan said he wouldn't carry it out. It's still on the books.
Say it like thisSo when I say the Brotherhood wants a government run by Islamic law, that's Sharia. And I want to be careful here, because for most Muslims Sharia just means how they live their faith: they pray, they fast, they give. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when a government takes it and enforces it on everybody. In Iran, a 22-year-old girl named Mahsa Amini got arrested for how she wore her headscarf, and she died in police custody. In Saudi Arabia, a blogger got sentenced to a thousand lashes for insulting Islam on his website. In Pakistan, a Christian woman sat on death row for eight years over an argument about a cup of water, and the governor who stood up for her was shot dead by his own bodyguard. In Afghanistan, girls can't go to school past sixth grade, and a woman isn't allowed to read out loud in public. That's what this looks like when it's the law of the land. And even most Muslims in a country like Turkey don't want it.
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Yes, same thing. Sharia is the Arabic word for Islamic law.
Two very different meanings. For most Muslims, Sharia is personal: praying five times a day, fasting at Ramadan, giving to charity, eating halal. A Muslim neighbor who says he follows Sharia almost always means that.
The Brotherhood means the other one: the government enforces it on everyone, with police, courts and punishments. That is where it gets dangerous.
Muslims don't all want it. Pew asked Muslims in 39 countries (2008 to 2012) if Sharia should be the official law. Afghanistan 99% yes, Pakistan 84%, Egypt 74%, Turkey just 12%. In many countries, most of the people who said yes also said it should apply only to Muslims.
If someone pushes back"That's Islamophobic." No. I'm not talking about Muslims, I'm talking about governments. The people suffering most under these laws are Muslims: Mahsa Amini was Muslim. Afghan girls are Muslim. Any religion's law forced on people by the state, with prison and lashes, I'm against.
Hand it to RobIf you lived somewhere where saying the wrong thing about religion could get you lashed or killed, what would you actually stop saying?
5Give him his due first3 min
What this part is about: Before the hard part, show you're being fair. If you cartoon him, the people you most want to reach stop listening.
Say it like thisI'm going to give him his due first. This is a smart, accomplished guy, and he has condemned Hamas, on the record. And not everything Republicans say about him holds up. I like Ted Cruz. But the day after El-Sayed won, Cruz said in a Senate hearing that his campaign is openly embracing terrorist organizations, and there's nothing behind that. So I'm not doing that. I'm going to show you the record, and his own words, and you decide.
Start 9:45, stop 10:30. "They're going to use Islamophobia because their ideas are tired."
File: 04-ms-now-his-side.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
He has condemned Hamas, on the record: "Hamas violated these principles in its heinous attack on October 7th... I condemned it then, and I condemn it now."
Not every attack on him holds up. The day after he won, Senator Ted Cruz held a Senate hearing on the Muslim Brotherhood, named El-Sayed, and said his campaign is "openly embracing terrorist organizations." Nothing backs that line. Cruz's own witness said his concern was the people around El-Sayed, not El-Sayed himself.
His answer to all of it: it's Islamophobia, and his opponents are using it because they have nothing else.
Hand it to RobHe says every one of these questions is Islamophobia. Where's the line between asking fair questions about a candidate and going after his religion?
6His family: what the record shows8 min
What this part is about: The heart of the episode. Three people: his half-sister, his birth mother, and his father-in-law. All three are private citizens and none was ever charged with a crime, so this is where the exact words matter most. Say what each one did. Let the listener connect it.
His half-sister's posts
Say it like thisHis own half-sister, back in 2012, posted that she had an amazing talk with their mom about her activism in the Muslim Brotherhood in college. She wrote: my family has long been MB. And that relatives in Egypt went to jail for being part of it. Those are her words, not mine.
Start 4:15, stop 5:30. Ends on "It's just not serious."
File: 05-nbc-llamas-reads-posts.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
In June 2012 she posted: "Had an amazing talk with my mom about her activism in the Muslim Brotherhood during the early 70s while she was in college."
Also: "My family has long been MB." MB is Muslim Brotherhood. She also wrote that relatives in Egypt were jailed for being part of it, during Egypt's crackdown.
NBC read those posts back to him on air. He called it "hearsay evidence from a tweet."
His birth mother and the charity
Say it like thisHis birth mother worked five years for a charity in Missouri. In 2004 the Treasury shut it down as a terror financier. Her name is on its wire transfers in the court papers more than a dozen times. She was never charged, and I'm not saying she did anything. And to be fair, he didn't grow up with her. Fine. Then say that. Don't tell Meet the Press your family has no ties.
Start 0:17, stop 0:48. Rogers: "You're bought off by Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda." El-Sayed: "You going after my mom?" Rogers: "I'm not going after your mom."
File: 06-cnn-debate-going-after-my-mom.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
From 1999 to 2004 she worked for the Islamic American Relief Agency, IARA, a Muslim charity in Columbia, Missouri.
In 2004 the US Treasury designated IARA's global parent group a terror financier and shut the charity down.
Court papers show her name more than a dozen times on the charity's wire transfers to Iraq. That case was about breaking the US sanctions on Iraq, and the charity pleaded guilty to that.
She was never charged with anything. She's a nurse practitioner in Missouri.
He says he wasn't raised by her. That's true: he grew up with his dad and stepmom.
Rogers raised it to his face in the October 8th debate. El-Sayed: "You're going after my mom?" Rogers said he was going after the organization she worked for. PolitiFact called Rogers' line "mostly accurate, with context."
His father-in-law, Tayeb Jukaku
Two groups and one court case to explain first, in one breath each:
CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations: the biggest Muslim civil rights and lobbying group in America.
ISNA, the Islamic Society of North America: one of the biggest Muslim organizations in the country, known for its big yearly convention.
The Holy Land Foundation case, 2008: a Texas charity, once the biggest Muslim charity in America. Its leaders were convicted of sending about $12 million to Hamas. The biggest terror-financing case in US history.
Prosecutors listed CAIR and ISNA as unindicted co-conspirators. That means named as connected, but never charged, and never given a trial to clear their name. A judge later said that list shouldn't have been made public, and in the same ruling said there was "ample evidence" tying the groups to Hamas.
Texas and Florida have both designated CAIR a terrorist organization under state law. CAIR is suing both. The federal government hasn't.
Say it like thisHis father-in-law ran the Michigan chapter of CAIR for five years and is still on the board. He's also a founder-level guy at ISNA. Federal prosecutors named both of those groups in the biggest Hamas financing case in American history. Named, never charged. He gave three hundred thousand dollars to the super PAC electing his son-in-law. Then July 20th he gives a hundred grand to CAIR's super PAC, and July 21st that PAC sends a hundred seventy-five grand to the same super PAC. That's not me. That's the federal filings.
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Jukaku ran CAIR Michigan for five years and is still on its board. He sits on ISNA's Founders Committee.
He gave $300,000 to the super PAC backing his son-in-law. (A super PAC is an outside group that can raise and spend unlimited money for a candidate.)
July 20th: he gave $100,000 to CAIR's own super PAC. July 21st, the next day: that PAC sent $175,000 to the same super PAC backing El-Sayed. Both are in federal election filings.
If someone pushes back"You're judging him by his family." No. I'm judging his answer about his family. Nobody picks their relatives. You do pick what you say on Meet the Press.
Hand it to RobNobody chooses their family. So how much of this is fair to put on him?
7The 2012 Morsi letter2 min
What this part is about: Something with his own name on it, from before he was in politics. Attribute it, because the source is one outlet.
Say it like thisIn 2012 the Brotherhood's president in Egypt, Morsi, put himself above the courts. A letter backing him, and telling him to purge the media and the police, has a signer named Dr. Abdul Rahman El-Sayed, of New York. The Washington Free Beacon says that's him. His campaign never answered. Days later, Morsi's supporters were beating protesters outside the palace. If that's not him, all he has to do is say so.
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
November 2012: Egypt's Brotherhood president, Morsi, issued a decree putting himself above Egypt's courts.
A public letter backing that decree, and urging Morsi to purge the media and police, lists a signer as "Dr. Abdul Rahman El-Sayed" of New York. He was in New York at Columbia then.
The Washington Free Beacon says its sources confirmed that's him. His campaign never answered.
Days later, Morsi's supporters attacked protesters outside the presidential palace and held and beat dozens of them.
Hand it to RobIf that's him, does a letter from 2012 matter today? People change in 14 years.
8The money he kept4 min
What this part is about: This one isn't about his relatives. It's his own campaign account, and his own choice to keep the money.
Say it like thisForget his family for a second. This is his own campaign account. Forty-one people who work for CAIR or have led it gave him more than a hundred fifteen thousand dollars. One of them is CAIR's founder and boss, Nihad Awad. After October 7th, Awad said he was happy to see it. The Biden White House condemned him for that. He wrote El-Sayed a check, and El-Sayed kept it. Another donor is Mohamed Soltan. Mohamed is an American, Egypt jailed him, and we got him out. But his father is a Brotherhood cleric who called for killing Israel's ambassador, on video. I'm not saying every one of those donors is a bad person. I'm saying this man campaigns on getting money out of politics, and this is the money he decided to keep.
0:00 to 0:12 only. Stop before the line about his mom and bin Laden. That goes further than the record.
File: 10-fox-business-headlines.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
A Fox News review of federal filings found more than $115,000 to his campaign from at least 41 people who work for CAIR or have led it, in eight states.
One of them is Nihad Awad, CAIR's co-founder and national executive director. After October 7th, Awad said he was "happy" to see people in Gaza "breaking the siege." The Biden White House condemned that. His $750 check is filed under "Nehad Hammad, CAIR Foundation Executive Director."
Mohamed Soltan is also a donor. He's an American citizen. Egypt sentenced him to life in 2015 during its crackdown on the Brotherhood, and the US got him freed.
His father, Salah Soltan, is a senior Brotherhood cleric. In 2011, on video, he called for killing Israel's ambassador. He's in prison in Egypt today.
Getting money out of politics is one of El-Sayed's main campaign promises.
Hand it to RobShould he give back Awad's money? Would you, even if it was only $750?
9"No ties." The denial4 min
What this part is about: Bring it back to the cold open. Now the listener knows everything you know, so his "No" means something.
Say it like thisSo back to where we started. Does his family have ties to the Brotherhood? He says no. His sister says the family has long been Brotherhood, and their mom was active in it. His mother worked at a charity the Treasury shut down as a terror financier. His father-in-law led groups named in the biggest Hamas financing case in history, and he's funding the campaign. Maybe none of that makes him Brotherhood. I'm not saying it does. But here's what he could have said: some of my relatives were part of that movement. I'm not. I don't believe what they believe. Done. Story over. Instead he said no. No ties. With all that out there? That's not an answer. That's a dodge. Do they think we're stupid?
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Meet the Press, October 11th: asked if his family has any ties to the Brotherhood, he said no.
Three days later on NBC Nightly News, shown his sister's posts, he called them hearsay from a tweet, and said he never discussed it with his mother.
An honest answer was easy, and it would have ended the story: "Some of my relatives were part of it. I'm not. I don't share those views."
Hand it to RobWhy do you think he said no instead of just owning it?
10Temple Israel6 min
What this part is about: A terror attack on a synagogue in his own state, and what he said the next day. This is the clip of the episode.
Say it like thisIn March a man drove a truck into a synagogue outside Detroit. There's a preschool in that building, about 140 little kids. Thank God every one of them got out. The FBI says he was inspired by Hezbollah. His brother was a Hezbollah commander. The next day El-Sayed put out a video. He condemned it, and I'll give him that. Then he explained it. Hurt people hurt people. Then somebody asked him: does that go both ways? What about a Jew who attacks a mosque? And his answer was, after October 7th there was a whole genocide. So the understanding only goes one direction. In my opinion, the explanation cancels the condemnation. Then in late August, after he'd won the primary, he said his comments may have been misconstrued. Misconstrued.
Start 1:00, stop 1:20. "May have been misconstrued."
File: 13-cbs-apology.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
March 12, 2026. A man drove a truck into Temple Israel, a big synagogue in West Bloomfield, outside Detroit, and drove down the hall. The building has a preschool. About 140 kids were inside. All of them got out safe.
He traded gunfire with security guards. A guard was hurt. The attacker died at the scene.
The FBI called it a Hezbollah-inspired attack that targeted the Jewish community. Hezbollah is the Iran-backed terrorist group in Lebanon. The attacker's brother was a Hezbollah commander killed in an Israeli strike.
The next day El-Sayed posted a video. He said "I condemn what he did" and "There is never a justification for attacking innocent people or houses of worship." Then: "Hurt people hurt people. Violence is a cycle."
Weeks later, at a University of Michigan event, he said it again. A reporter asked: does the same apply to a Jewish person who attacked a mosque after October 7th? His answer: "After Oct. 7, there was a whole genocide against Palestinians."
August 30th, after he won the primary, he said his comments "may have been misconstrued."
If someone pushes back"He said nothing justifies it." He did, and I played it. My problem is what he said right after, and that he wouldn't say it the other way around.
Hand it to RobYou've got kids. If someone drove into their school, and a Senate candidate said "hurt people hurt people" the next day, how does that land?
11Hasan Piker3 min
What this part is about: Who he chooses to stand next to. Piker is a huge online figure your audience may not know, so introduce him first.
Say it like thisIf you don't know Hasan Piker, he's a streamer with millions of young followers. He said America deserved 9/11. He said Hamas is a thousand times better than Israel. El-Sayed held a rally with him. And it's not just Republicans saying drop him. Haley Stevens, the Democrat he beat, is saying it. His answer: he's not focused on who he campaigns with. You're running for the US Senate. Who you stand next to is the whole thing.
Start 9:06, stop 9:17. "I'm not as focused on who I'm campaigning with."
File: 16-ms-now-piker-campaigning.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Hasan Piker: left-wing political streamer on Twitch with millions of followers, mostly young men.
In 2019 he said "America deserved 9/11." He walked it back two days later, and has kept defending the idea behind it.
He's said Hamas is "a thousand times better than a fascist settler colonial apartheid state," meaning Israel.
El-Sayed held a rally with him at the University of Michigan and posted it on his own campaign channel.
Haley Stevens, the Democrat he beat, is calling on him to drop Piker. He hasn't said he will.
Hand it to RobIs it fair to hold a candidate responsible for what a supporter says? Where's your line?
12Israel, Iran and October 7th7 min
What this part is about: His record on Israel since October 7th, and the one yes-or-no question about Iran he couldn't answer. Plus your take, as a vet, on how Israel fights.
Say it like thisTwo weeks after October 7th, before Israel's ground invasion even started, he was calling it genocide. On CNN he was asked three times if Israel has a right to exist, and he wouldn't say yes. On the anniversary of October 7th his campaign sent a fundraising email that didn't say the word Hamas. In the debate he was asked who's more dangerous, Iran or Israel, and he said both. And a college kid whose uncle got fifty lashes from the Iranian regime asked him one yes or no question: do you stand against the IRGC, Iran's Revolutionary Guard, the outfit that arms Hezbollah? He couldn't say yes. To be fair, he said he wants freedom for the people of Iran. But the kid asked about the IRGC. That's the question.
Start 1:53, stop 2:35, then 3:57 to 4:10. Student: "You still haven't said it, and we're dying. Do you stand with us?" Him: "I will always stand with movements for freedom and democracy."
File: 19-irgc-town-hall.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
October 21, 2023, two weeks after October 7th and a week before Israel's ground invasion of Gaza began (October 27th), he posted: "At the heart of the genocide being perpetrated against innocent Palestinians today..."
On CNN, Kasie Hunt asked him three times if Israel has a right to exist. He said: "I'm not going to play this gotcha game."
October 7, 2025, the second anniversary of the attack, his campaign sent a fundraising email that opened "Two years ago this month, Netanyahu's military launched a ground invasion of Gaza." No mention of Hamas. His spokeswoman said it "mistakenly went out."
In the October 8th debate, asked which is more dangerous, Iran or Israel: "Ridiculous hypothetical... both of them have proven dangerous in their own way."
The IRGC is Iran's Revolutionary Guard, the regime's own army. It arms, funds and trains Hezbollah and Iran's other militias. The US named it a terrorist organization in 2019.
In September, at a University of Michigan town hall, an Iranian-American student whose uncle got 50 lashes under the regime asked him straight out: do you stand against the IRGC? He talked about regime change and corporate interests and never said yes.
If someone pushes back"He called Iran a dangerous threat in the same debate." He did. And in the same breath he put Israel next to it. "He was against the war, not for the regime." Then it's easy: I'm against the war, and the IRGC is a terrorist outfit. Two sentences. He gave one.
Your take as a vet: how Israel fights
This part is your opinion and your experience. Say so, and the critics have nothing to grab.
Say it like thisI was in Iraq. Here's what I can tell you. I have never heard of an army that calls the people on the other side, texts them, drops maps telling them where to go, and knocks on the roof before it hits the building. John Spencer is a retired Army officer who did two tours in Iraq and studies city fighting for a living. He says no army in history has done more to avoid civilian deaths. That's my view too. So when a man calls it genocide two weeks in, before the ground war even started, I don't think he got there from the evidence.
Start 24:15, stop 25:01. He says Israel has done more to limit civilian death than any military in the history of war, then says he won't call it the most moral army. Play it through: him being careful is what makes the first part believable. If you only want the claim, stop at 24:38.
Start 22:10, stop 22:53. Mosul, Iraq, 2017: 100,000 Iraqi troops, nine months, to take a city back from 3,000 to 5,000 ISIS fighters, and estimates of 10,000 to 40,000 civilians dead. Good right after you talk about your own time in Iraq.
Start 15:30, stop 16:02. "Israel has done more and implemented more measures to prevent civilian harm than any military in the history of urban warfare," then he lists them: strike rules, evacuating cities, limiting force, warning civilians. He calls it "controversial but factual."
Start 10:08, stop 10:35. "There's never been a military in history who has fed their enemy's population during a battle." Then the pause to vaccinate Gaza.
34 seconds. Say what roof knocking is before you play it. YouTube age-locks this one, so it is not in the clip pack: play it from the link, or use the General Wald clip instead.
All 73 seconds. An American general, 35 years in, who says he had never heard of it. Not the IDF.
File: 25-gen-wald-roof-knocking.mp4
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
What the IDF does to warn civilians: phone calls, text messages, recorded calls, leaflets dropped from the air, evacuation maps showing where to go, calling off strikes when civilians show up, and "roof knocking": a small charge on the roof to get people out before the real strike.
Who John Spencer is: a retired US Army major, 25 years as an infantry officer, two combat tours in Iraq. He led urban warfare studies at West Point and now runs the Urban Warfare Institute. He has been on the ground in Gaza with the IDF.
His actual claim: Israel has done more to prevent civilian harm than any military in the history of urban war. Be careful here: he does not call it "the most moral army in the world." He was asked that straight out and said, "I won't go as far as to say Israel's the most moral military in the world." Don't put those words in his mouth.
The claim that Israel has one of the lowest civilian-to-combatant death ratios in modern urban war is disputed. If you use it, credit it to Spencer as his argument.
If someone pushes back"Piers Morgan called BS on Spencer." He did, on Piers Morgan Uncensored, over the death-ratio numbers. That's why you lead with what Israel did to warn people, which nobody disputes happened, and give the ratio as Spencer's argument, not settled fact.
Hand it to RobYou've heard me on Israel a lot. Where do you think I'm wrong?
13What if he wins?3 min
What this part is about: Why this matters past November. This is opinion and worry, and you say so out loud. That makes it hit harder, not softer.
Say it like thisHere's what worries me. A US senator sees classified information. That's part of the job. So if a man's family has these ties, and he takes this money, and he won't give a straight answer about any of it, does he become a Trojan horse? That's my worry. I can't prove it, and I'm not claiming to. I'm asking the question. And I think Michigan voters should be asking it too.
The facts behind it (backup if Rob or anyone asks)
Members of Congress don't need a security clearance. Senators get access to classified information by virtue of the office.
The Gang of Eight are the eight members of Congress who get the most sensitive intelligence briefings: the party leaders in both houses, plus the top Republican and top Democrat on both intelligence committees. A brand-new senator wouldn't be one of them right away.
His opponent, Rogers, used to chair the House Intelligence Committee. He's spent his career in exactly this world.
Hand it to RobIs that a fair worry, or is that the exact thing he calls Islamophobia?
14Close: who was telling the truth?6 min
What this part is about: The verdict. Stack everything up so the listener feels the weight of it, then say where you stand and send people to the sources. Every line here was covered earlier in the episode, so nothing is new to the listener.
What you are stacking up
Genocide, two weeks in. October 21, 2023, before the ground invasion even started. Against an army that, per John Spencer, has done more to prevent civilian deaths than any military in history.
Iran or Israel: "both dangerous." Our own State Department calls Iran the world's worst state sponsor of terrorism. He called the question a "ridiculous hypothetical."
Israel's right to exist: asked three times on CNN, wouldn't say yes.
The IRGC: a student whose uncle got 50 lashes asked if he stands against it. He never said yes.
October 7th anniversary email: no mention of Hamas.
Temple Israel: "hurt people hurt people," but asked about the other direction, "a whole genocide."
"No ties" on Meet the Press, against his own sister's words.
Awad's money: kept it.
Hasan Piker: still campaigning with a man who said America deserved 9/11.
Say it like thisSo who was telling the truth? Not everything Republicans said about him holds up. We checked, and we told you which parts. But what does hold up is bad enough, and almost all of it is his own words.
Two weeks after October 7th, before Israel's ground invasion even started, he called it genocide. I was in Iraq. I know what war does to a city. And I have never seen an army do what Israel does to get civilians out of the way: the phone calls, the texts, the maps, the knock on the roof. John Spencer, a retired Army officer who studies city fighting for a living, says no military in history has done more to prevent civilian deaths. In my opinion, it's the most careful fighting I've ever seen. And this man calls that genocide.
On a debate stage he was asked who's more dangerous, Iran or Israel. Think about that question. Iran. Our own State Department calls it the world's worst state sponsor of terrorism. Its police arrested a 22-year-old girl over her headscarf, and she died in their custody. It arms Hezbollah, the group that inspired the attack on a synagogue in his own state. And on the other side, a democracy defending itself after the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. He called it a ridiculous hypothetical and said both of them are dangerous. He put them side by side.
He was asked three times if Israel has a right to exist. He wouldn't say yes. A student whose uncle got fifty lashes from that regime asked him if he stands against the IRGC. He wouldn't say yes. On the anniversary of October 7th, his campaign sent out a fundraising email that never said the word Hamas. A man drove a truck into a synagogue with a preschool in it, and the next day he told us hurt people hurt people. Asked if that goes both ways, his answer was, after October 7th there was a whole genocide.
His own sister says the family has long been Brotherhood, and he told Meet the Press no ties. He took money from a man who said he was happy to see October 7th, and he kept it. And he's still campaigning with a guy who said America deserved 9/11.
Any one of those, maybe you give him the benefit of the doubt. All of them together? That's a pattern. And it's not his family's pattern. It's his.
In my opinion, that's not who Michigan should send to the Senate. And for the record, I'm not a Republican. Neither side works for me right now. But I'll vote for whoever stands with Israel. Don't take my word for any of this. Every source is in the description. Go check it, and if we got something wrong, tell us. We'll fix it on air.
If someone pushes back"He called Iran a threat too." He did. And in the same breath he put Israel next to it, a country that calls people on the phone to warn them before it strikes. "Spencer is just one guy." That's why I say it's his finding and my opinion. Nobody disputes the phone calls, the leaflets and the roof knocks happened.
Hand it to RobLast word to Rob: what's the one thing you want someone undecided in Michigan to take from this?
Quick reference
Who's who, in one breath each
Abdul El-Sayed: 41, doctor, Democratic nominee for US Senate in Michigan. Never held elected office.
Mike Rogers: his Republican opponent. Army vet, ex-FBI, former House Intelligence chairman.
Haley Stevens: Democratic congresswoman he beat in the primary.
Gary Peters: the retiring Democratic senator. Why the seat is open.
Muslim Brotherhood: Islamist movement, Egypt, 1928. Wants government by Islamic law. Hamas grew out of it.
Sharia: Arabic for Islamic law. For most Muslims it means personal practice (prayer, fasting). The danger is when a government enforces it as criminal law.
Mohamed Morsi: Brotherhood president of Egypt 2012 to 2013. Removed by the military.
Hamas: terrorist group that ran Gaza and carried out October 7th.
Hezbollah: Iran-backed terrorist group in Lebanon.
IRGC: Iran's Revolutionary Guard. Arms and funds Hezbollah. US-designated terrorist group since 2019.
CAIR: biggest Muslim civil rights and lobbying group in the US.
Nihad Awad: CAIR's co-founder and director. Said he was "happy" to see Gazans "breaking the siege" on October 7th.
ISNA: Islamic Society of North America. One of the biggest Muslim groups in the US.
Holy Land Foundation: Texas charity whose leaders were convicted in 2008 of funding Hamas.
Unindicted co-conspirator: named as connected to a crime, never charged.
IARA: Islamic American Relief Agency, Missouri charity shut down by Treasury in 2004.
Tayeb Jukaku: his father-in-law. CAIR Michigan board, ISNA founders committee, major donor.
Mohamed Soltan: US citizen, donor. Egypt jailed him, the US got him out. Son of Salah Soltan, a jailed Brotherhood cleric.
Hasan Piker: left-wing streamer. "America deserved 9/11."
AIPAC: the biggest pro-Israel lobby.
Super PAC: outside group that can spend unlimited money for a candidate.
Words to keep out of your mouth
"Terrorist" about his mom, his sister, his father-in-law, or Mohamed Soltan. None was ever charged. Say what they did.
"Justified" about Temple Israel. He said "never a justification." Say "explained" or "excused."
"Involved in sending money to terrorists." Say "worked at" or "named in."
"Spy." That accuses him of a crime. "Trojan horse, in my opinion" is yours to say.